Episode 29
WITS chats 'Some Like It Hot' | dir. Billy Wilder | 1959
Rebecca and Tori chat Billy Wilder's 1954 classic, 'Some Like It Hot.' This is the next installment of our Recommended By series from the Criterion Closet. This week's picker is director, Elegance Bratton. We delve into the movie's themes, some production notes, and US culture at the time of the movie's release.
Music
Apache Rock Instrumental | by Sound Atelier; licensed from Jamendo
Shining Star Flourish: Sound Effect by u_it78ck90s3 from Pixabay
Spotlight Flourish: Sound Effect by StudioKolomna from Pixabay
Movie Clip
YouTube Movies | Some Like It Hot | YouTube
Explicit
There is some swearing and we chat about sexuality and social norms.
Sources
Transcript
Welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows, the podcast that skirts the perilous drop off of a deep dive into television and movies. Today on Wallowing in the Shallows.
Rebecca (:It's hard for me to decide if that character is really Jerry or if that character is actually Daphne, you know?
Tori (:Well, you know, when he thought about that name, right? Because he was supposed to be Geraldine. Yes! And he, when they're getting introduced to Sweet Sue and Beanstalk! He's like, I'm Daphne, yeah! And he's like, I always liked that name or something to that of-
Rebecca (:Oh yeah, yeah, like maybe little Jerry liked to wear girls' you know? And it was like, it was initially his idea. For the hula skirts and the earrings and all that stuff that I was really getting down with, you know?
Tori (:Hey hello peeps, welcome to Wallowing in the Shallows. This is Tori.
Rebecca (:And this is Rebecca. We are academic nerds aspiring to become TV and movie geeks.
Tori (:There are no spoiler guards in the shallows, so listen at your own risk.
Rebecca (:Today we are jumping into the pan of Some Like It Hot from 1959.
Tori (:How long did it take you to come up with that one?
Rebecca (:right off the, right off the dome.
Rebecca (:The quality is exhibited by it.
Tori (:Yes.
So yes, we are continuing with our Recommended By from the Criterion Closet picks. This Yes. Some Like It Hot is one of my pickers, as I like to call them. And it's Elegance Bratton, who I did not know, but had an amazing list of films. I mean, like a lot. I really wanted to do Sid and Nancy, but it didn't come up. So that was a bummer. But some of his other ones were.
Written in the Wind, All That Heaven Allows, Rashomon, Paris Is Burning again, that comes up a lot with a lot of our people, Bamboozle, Battle of Algiers, and then Some Like It Hot. And that's not even all of them. That was just some of them. Some Like It Hot, yeah, comedy. And Elegance Bratton, an interesting guy. Like I said, I didn't know who he was, but he's a director. And what an interesting history he has. He was...
kicked out of his house by his mom when she found out he was gay at the age of 16. And so he was like homeless for 10 years. And I can't remember the name of the, there's an area in the New York area. I should have wrote it down, but anyways, he kind of ended up in this area where a lot of, you know, gay homeless teens were and so forth, which is so sad, but he.
said there were many times when he was starving, but he made it through it. Ended up at Columbia University somehow. I don't know how, but in their film studies program and he went into the Marines. Maybe that's how he got to Columbia. I don't know. I don't know what came first, but he is kind of well known for this documentary. It's kind of an autobiographical documentary or drama called The Inspection.
Tori (:And it's based on his boot camp experience in the Marines. And I'm going to have to watch that, sounds interesting. But I was like, dude, how do you go from there to where you are now? And I guess I was actually quite angry for him. I was reading that he actually learned how to make, he must've gone to the Marines first and then to film school. Because now I'm remembering he,
Rebecca (:I like.
Tori (:learned how to make films in the Marine Corps. was one of the things he could choose to do is learn how to make movies and then make training video or training movies for the Marines. then... Yeah, exactly. But anyways, some like it hot.
Rebecca (:I'll do all you can be.
Rebecca (:What did he have to say? I know that sometimes they don't say much. What say about this film?
Tori (:Yeah. Oh, he had a lot to say. Yeah. thinks that Marilyn Monroe, I'm going to quote him, there's the greatest movie star that ever lived in the most famous person that has ever lived besides Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King.
Rebecca (:Wow.
Tori (:And so he has this kind of, it's not a picture and it's not an image. It's almost like an alternate life for Marilyn Monroe in his head where she lived long enough to experience the feminist movement, right? The women's movement. Yeah, yeah. Way too young. he thinks that she would have
Rebecca (:longer than 36?
Tori (:really been like a huge part of that and he wishes that she would have lived to see that. I meant to check this out and I didn't, but he thought she was the first female to own a production company in Hollywood.
Rebecca (:don't know if she was the first, but I know that she did do that, hoping to break free from the clutches and do more of her own stuff. Her vision of her acting, not the typecasting she was forced into over and over again.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah. And he thought people really kind of underestimated her that, and of course, Hollywood, men in Hollywood at the time, the studio system was like, they just wanted this blonde bombshell and didn't care about anything else. he said that Marilyn Monroe was actually able to demonstrate that women could be sexy and brainy at the same time. And so those were some of the things that he talked about as to why.
He picked a Marilyn Monroe movie. He didn't get really specific about why it was some like it hot.
Rebecca (:Interesting.
Tori (:Anyways, yeah.
Rebecca (:Cool, very cool. know, just before I forget, we should really be keeping a list. I too have several times been like, darn it, I wanted it to be that movie, you know, when I have the five picks. We should be maybe keeping a list of those near misses because I love that we go with what came up, you know, but I wouldn't mind going with those that.
we were kind of leaning toward when we saw the list in the first place.
Tori (:Yeah, I mean, you know, like he had several movies that other people have. I mean, so many people pick Kurosawa movies, you know, but he was like the only person I have heard so far and I've watched. I haven't watched all of the closet picks yet, but I'm getting pretty close to having seen them all. And he is the only person that's picked Sid and Nancy. It's been a really, I mean, I don't think I've seen that movie since the eighties. So it would be kind of fun to see it again. And Gary Oldman plays Sid Vicious. Yeah.
Rebecca (:Yeah, we should do it.
Tori (:So anyhow...
Rebecca (:For this one, which I am really glad the randomness brought it up, and had we gone with just the one you chose from Elegance Bratton, then we would have missed it.
Tori (:Yep. Have you seen it before?
Rebecca (:I not. No, yeah, I have not seen it before. And, you know, there's a Broadway show still going on. And so it was kind of back in my head. I haven't seen the show, but I was thinking about it. And now that I've seen.
Tori (:really?
Tori (:Right.
Tori (:Me, your cousin was not involved in the casting.
Rebecca (:You're dead!
Tori (:You
Rebecca (:Correct. But now I have some interest, so I need to find out if it's still going on.
Tori (:I learned some stuff about this movie. I've seen it before. seen it, I mean, a handful of times. And, you know, and it's just always made me laugh and I've never really thought much about the movie in any kind of detail whatsoever. So I did do a little bit of background research, you know, written and directed by Billy Wilder and I.A.L. Diamond was also a co-writer on it. And I guess they collaborated on quite a few things, but I'm, you know,
We called ourselves Wallowing in the Shallows for a reason. And I had heard the name Billy Wilder, but I didn't realize, I mean, he's made some huge movies that I have not seen. I was like, oh, that's like a whole list. We could have like a whole Billy Wilder month and see, cause like Sunset Boulevard. I've never seen that. I've never seen The Apartment, which is also a Marilyn Monroe movie and Jack Lemmon. And so that would be kind of fun. I was trying to think a little bit deeper about the movie.
And I was wondering why Billy Wilder was like really kind of focused on this movie with these two guys trying to hide out by dressing as women, because it's not drag and it's not transvestite ism. It's they're just really trying to stay alive and they have to dress as women to do that. But he was really kind of considered like a Hollywood auteur because he was able to work within the Hollywood.
u know, when this came out in: Rebecca (:League.
Tori (:promoting homosexuality and transvestitism and immoral behaviors and things like that. And the first test audience, I guess, didn't laugh. They couldn't find the humor in it. And the studio was all flipping out and Billy Wilder took it to this college campus. And he said it was a huge hit there, which I thought was interesting. But I was trying to figure out, you know, what was it in Billy Wilder's background? And I wondered if, like many people during that time in Hollywood, if he was in the closet.
But he was married and I think, you he escaped Germany. He was Jewish. He escaped Germany before or right after Hitler. Yeah. But his stepdad and the rest of his family was all killed in the Holocaust. And I wondered if that kind of gave him this like kind of fuck it, you know, I'm going to do what I want to do and tell these stories. I want to tell studios be damned kind of attitude because it was quite modern thinking. Right.
Rebecca (:Hugely, and it wasn't just the Catholic League. You know, there were all those rules, right? Past that Hayes Act. So it was my understanding that this was produced through that Mirish Brothers company. Didn't we run into that with Pink Panther and Blake Edwards? Though it was more independent of the studios.
Tori (:the Hayes Act. Yeah.
Tori (:I bet I don't remember.
Rebecca (:Anyway, it was produced by Mirrish Company's pictures. I'm not sure if that's the same one that did Pink Panther, but again, I saw that that was where Billy Wilder sort of had free reign. And we heard that again. We heard that also about Pink Panther, you know, that it allowed them to not be so within the confines of those studio rules.
Tori (:Right.
Rebecca (:And that it was based on, mean, not based on, inspired by a show that had been in Europe and that they had to change it. They were like, how are we gonna be able to sell these men dressed up in drag, if you will? And that's how they could sell it, is fearing for their lives. It was like, okay, we can get away with it this way. They're running from the mob.
inspired on the true events of that Valentine's Day massacre, you know, and they were made. And so I feel like he really was trying to explore these ideas of gayness and cross dressing and all of this, but had to sell it, you know, and not sell it, but to get people to watch it, right, with where America was at the time.
Tori (:Right, right.
Rebecca (:And getting Marilyn Monroe definitely helped. And I think Tony Curtis was a pretty big at the time. Jack Lemmon was kind of coming up, you know? And for me, my first watch of it, I hadn't done any research at all. And I was kind of like, huh, you know, this is pretty funny. And then after I did the research and watched it again in the context of the time, I really liked it even more.
Tori (:Yes, yes.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:Right.
Tori (:Right.
Yeah.
Rebecca (:And I kind of admired, mean, those two men kind of took risks taking these roles, right? Can you play a leading man after, you know, America has seen you in a dress? And so the second time I just thoroughly enjoyed it. And now I'm a real appreciator of Billy Wilder and have
Tori (:Yeah.
Rebecca (:gained a great deal more appreciation for Marilyn Monroe.
Tori (:Yes. Yeah. I thought it was interesting that I guess Billy Wilder hired like a coach for Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon. Did you read about that?
Rebecca (:yeah, a drag queen from Europe who grew up in Texas. friend of somebody.
Tori (:That's right. That's right. Yeah. And yeah, but then that person quit and it was like, you know, Tony's doing great, but you got to recast lemon. Yeah. But then I thought it was funny. I was listening to an interview with Jack lemon and he was saying, you know, one day they were like all in costume and had the full makeup on and everything.
Rebecca (:WAPT out.
Tori (:They were breaking for lunch. so he and Tony, I think it was right after this, right? Like after that drag queen walked off the picture and said, Lemon was, you know, not convincing, you know, recast, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they went into the women's rest area at the commissary, although not in the actual toilet stall area, but a lot of bathrooms back in the day would have like a little area with mirrors and stuff that you could.
check your makeup and stuff. And so they went in that part of the bathroom and none of the women were the wiser for it. So they went and told Billy Wilder and he was like, don't change anything about your looks or anything. This is what we're going with now. So I thought that was very interesting. Yeah. And I was like, well, I don't know. Did Jack Lemmon really speak much when he was in that women's Right. Yeah. And I thought it was really smart to
use that time period because those clothes with the flapper, with the very straight kind of silhouette was perfect to have then these two men play women. And I was like, that was a really smart move.
Rebecca (:Yes.
Rebecca (:I think there were multiple smart choices and I totally agree with that one. To my understanding is also, even though there was color available at the time, there was a definite choice to do this in black and white and that the makeup on them was more convincing in black and white than in color. And I believe that. Green.
Tori (:Yeah, guess they looked kind of
Rebecca (:So that's another smart choice here. And I guess Marilyn Monroe said she wasn't going to do black and white anymore. She thought she looked better in color, but did, you know, concede and do this in black and white. And I was like, girl, you look good no matter what the color is. don't think you need to worry about it. Holy cow.
Tori (:Well, I guess that was in her contract, right? That she wouldn't have to do black and white anymore. And they had to convince her. And so they went to a lot of trouble to make sure she was specially lit so that she would look fabulous, which she does.
Rebecca (:those dresses that were all specially made for her. And I think they, I think the same designer might've done some of the guys' dresses as well.
Tori (:It may be. It was great costuming. And I guess both of them, both Tony and Jack, kind of modeled their characters on their mothers. And I was like, wow, because Tony, when he was dressed as a female, always had his lips pursed.
Rebecca (:Which I thought was very effective. I thought his lips looked amazing.
Tori (:I was like, don't know any females who run around with their lips pursed like that all the time.
Rebecca (:think it made him look more feminine when he did it.
Tori (:Yeah, probably if I think about it. So, I mean, one of things I really loved about this movie that I hadn't really thought about before was how they're learning, right, about how women are really treated in the world. And they make comments about it throughout the movie, right, once they get into female costuming and, you know, Jack Lemmon's trying to...
Maybe we should use their character names. So Jack Lemmon's playing Jerry slash Daphne. Tony Curtis is playing Joe slash Josephine. And Marilyn Monroe's playing Sugarcane, which we also need to talk about that name. But I love when they're going to get on the train for the first time and Jack Lemmon's trying to walk in those heels and he's like, how do they do this? And you know, right then you...
start to get this idea like, there is an underlying message going on in this movie that I totally missed and all the other times I was kind of watching it. I mean, I probably was like, yeah, ha ha ha. But never really thought about what that meant in the wider social context of when this movie was made.
Rebecca (:And I do think that journey of, mean, because we, the first time we see Joe's interaction with a woman and he's stood up this woman who's made him a pizza. And then he, you know, tricks her into using her car to go to this gig, you know, total womanizer is sort of what you get is the vibe of him. And certainly his pursuit of sugar feels a little, but I feel like by the end, both of them,
have become better men, you know, as after this experience and will probably not treat women the way they did before. And you know, Daphne, Jerry just may end up gay, you know, right? Just may actually be or bisexual. And actually marry Osgood who is totally into it, you know?
Tori (:Bisexual, perhaps.
Rebecca (:Yes, I love that. And so I just think that they both really become better people after portraying women for a while, walking in those shoes, literally.
Tori (:Yes.
Tori (:Yeah, I thought Jerry slash Daphne's journey was much more interesting because of that. And I mean, I think that was what, you know, some of the people who complained about the movie didn't like. Right. So I thought that was that for me, that was like the best part of this movie was Daphne's Jerry Daphne, his journey, because he seemed to like learn a lot and he seemed to.
gain and appreciation for the experience of women. I mean, think Tony Curtis's character's journey, yeah, he learned some stuff, but it was still kind of the journey of a heteronormative man, right? Whereas Jerry Daphne's was not that typical journey.
Rebecca (:100 % agree, 100 % agree. They grew in different ways, but I do think they both became better humans. And honestly, I don't think Jerry, we didn't really see interactions with women with Jerry. I don't think Jerry was as bad as Joe was to women.
Tori (:No, I think, you know, the really kind of the only real scene that we see with him. I mean, he makes some comments about what like he's the first one to notice Marilyn Monroe's character. And then there's the whole train bunk scene, which is hysterical. But, you know, there he's like, I can really have to try not to have an erection while this woman is in my bus. And and so that's
Rebecca (:Yes. I'm a girl. I'm a girl. I'm a girl.
Tori (:The girl!
Yeah, that scene was funny. Yeah. I was like, how did they get all those people into that bunk?
Rebecca (:I think they must have lifted the top of the bunk at least a little bit. I have been in trouble with beds and you cannot fully sit up.
Tori (:Yeah. So that was fun.
Rebecca (:You know, there's also this mob movie layer component on top of it as well, which is kind of interesting. And I guess they got quite a few actors from mob movies at the time, which I've not seen. But you know, maybe that also kind of helped sell it, you know, having this mob aspect with the Tommy guns and everything and the little Napoleon at the end, you know, they carted out all the tropes and that was just.
Tori (:Yeah, I recognize.
Rebecca (:interesting, I'm going to call it a mashup, you know, from almost this La Cage aux Faux, know, kind of birdcage movie side to like a hard-bitten mobster film together. I don't know, it was just kind of, well, maybe not hard-bitten, but it was an interesting mashup.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:I've read one article, or I don't know, maybe it was a video I watched, I don't remember now, they were talking, when you said La Cajafal, that's what reminded me of it. Because the birdcage, this author was saying that the birdcage doesn't happen if someone gets hot doesn't happen, because it was really the first movie to start to challenge, as we were mentioning earlier, lot of these norms. And it was like the first kind of chink in the armor of the Hays code.
I mean, it doesn't drop overnight. Of course, it takes a little while, several years after this, but the ability to do those kinds of movies starts with some like it hot. Yeah.
Rebecca (:Awesome. So thank you some like it hot because I love birdcage.
Tori (:All of sudden I just flashed on Robin Williams doing the dance thing.
Rebecca (:Twilight Thor, Twilight Thor. Yeah, nice. I know exactly what you're talking about.
Tori (:So yeah, I never really thought of it as such a pivotal movie in American cinema.
Rebecca (:Yeah, and pushing that pivotal movie a little bit, I started to think during my second watch, I was like, Osgood knows. My hypothesis is not that Osgood isn't enchanted by all these women, but I think he knows from the get-go that Daphne is not a woman.
And he is attracted to Daphne as she, he is. I mean, Osgood gets a good look at Daphne's feet, right? Because he puts on the shoe and he's dancing with Daphne. mean, I, in my head, Cannon, I want to believe that Osgood is like, here is the.
person I have been waiting for all my life. I've had all these marriages trying to, you know, find what I want and this is who I want. And at the very least he figures it out somewhere along the way because at the end, know, when Daphne rips off the wig and is like, you know, I'm a man, damn it. He does not miss a beat. He is, in my opinion,
Tori (:Yeah, yeah.
Rebecca (:He is not surprised. He knows what he's in for.
Tori (:I because evidently they had several takes on that end scene with Jack Lemmon and Joey Brown and they ad-libbed. So Joey Brown was always saying something different. And then when they did the, well, nobody's perfect line, that is the one, obviously, that they kept. So it kind of makes me wonder if you would have had the same interpretation if they would have gone with one of the other cuts, right?
How influential was that particular moment, then in your interpretation of the rest of the film?
Rebecca (:Okay.
Okay, that is very fair. If at the end Daphne reveals that she is actually Jerry and Osgood is visibly shocked, surprised, you know, then yeah, I will have to rethink. I would have to rethink my treatise, but my goodness, a man's feet, a man's feet are never gonna look, no.
I guess Jerry was gallivanting around with the girls in the beach, but maybe they weren't looking very closely. I, know, Osgood is putting on his shoe. So, I don't know. I don't know. So that's just in my head. And again, dancing with Daphne, right? Doing the tango. I don't know. It just seems like at some point Osgood had to know. And I like to believe.
Tori (:Yeah.
Rebecca (:he knew from the jump and was like, I am into this. This is what I've been waiting for.
Tori (:This explains why none of my marriages worked. I don't really like women.
Rebecca (:I think that adds to the evidence, you know.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it definitely plays into the homosexual messages that some people had problems with. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it. Makes sense. It is kind of fun to think about it that way.
Rebecca (:I love it. really, it really adds a layer. And you know what? It really makes me like Osgood more. Because at first I'm like, Oh God, this disgusting. You know, I mean.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:And that laugh when he's on his lap. yeah. So just to like, yeah, the breath thing.
Rebecca (:Yeah, that's.
He's over the top in a lot of ways. And on multiple occasions, it's funny how men treat Daphne and Josephine because we know they're male. It's not so funny if you think if they were actually women, right? The one that really is unsettling to me is the bellhop.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:knew that's what you were gonna say.
Rebecca (:how the bellhop treats Josephine going so far to be like, don't bother locking your door. I have the key, right? Predator. Yeah, yeah. That's like, and you're like, well, you know, Joe's not going to let anything happen. Well, what if Josephine was really Josephine and not somebody who outweighed the bellhop and could take him out, you know, break him like a twig and yeah.
predatory much is right and that's kind of horrifying. And so again, I feel that that was part of the real brilliance of this movie is sure, you can just laugh at all the jokes and feel how it's funny. Or if you dig into it a little bit, you can be like, wow, there's some really good stuff to be gleaned here about the inequities between the genders.
Tori (:Right. And I don't think men bothered hiding it during, I mean, really not up until kind of like the 60s with the sexual revolution and so forth. think, and even then it still took a while. So I think it probably was an uncomfortable mirror for many men.
Rebecca (:Really well said, really well said. I love that uncomfortable mirror. Nice, you knocked me dumbstruck.
You know, it was also smart, I thought, that they set it during prohibition, right? Because I think that's such an interesting layer with something that was illegal at the time, but by the time this movie is released, it is not illegal. Everybody drinks, you know, all this sort of stuff. So the same kind of thing is some of these ideas and being gay and a man dressing as a woman is forbidden or illegal or whatever.
at the time, right? What should it be? Is this a good idea? if why are we forbidding this?
Tori (:Right, right. I was just wondering as you said that, because I was thinking back to, I think it was called The Midwife. I don't know. Some movie set in Great Britain during this same time frame, and it was against the law. I think it was called The Midwife. And there's a story plot in one of the episodes where a guy gets caught because the police have set up a sting in this men's room. And so he gets caught, which made me think, well, when did that?
penalties. And it's not until: And then of course, in: Rebecca (:Yeah.
Rebecca (:Sexuality is a spectrum. Very few things in nature are black and white.
Tori (:This is true. This is true. anyhow, but let's talk Marilyn. We haven't talked Marilyn. We're way into this and barely talked about the star.
Rebecca (:Hey.
Rebecca (:And she deserves, she deserves to be talked about. She deserves to be talked about. Yes. And what I will say, I mean, so it does sound like her given name is sugar, but she has given herself the cane. And so I choose to go with kind of stage name thing that sugar cane is catchy, you know? Sure. But obviously, mean, sugar is sweet and attractive and you know, brings it, you know, and
for someone who was typecast again and again in sort of the same role. this apparently my understanding, and correct me if you saw something different, this is after she has started her production company and she had done, was it seven year itch with Billy Wilder, which was very successful. then
Tori (:Yes. That was with the iconic dress. Yes. The white dress.
Rebecca (:another movie I haven't seen, but I know that was the movie with that scene in it. And that they did not get along well. That they kind of swore never to work with each other again. And Marilyn was off on her own and not getting too much traction yet and actually called Billy and asked him if there was anything, you know, anything he had available for her. And so they decided to work together again, because even though Seven Year Itch, had...
you know, not gotten along. It was very successful. Sure. And he wasn't sort of in that same system as, you know, as she had been in before. So that's kind of interesting context to have because once again, she is blonde and gore, you know, well, she's always going to be gorgeous, but and self-proclaimed, I'm not that smart. I, you know, I make, do stupid things and
Tori (:You're talking about in the movie now, actual.
Rebecca (:Move. So sorry. Yes. As sugar cane. sugar cane. Once again, kind of at least on the surface seem seeming like just gorgeous and not very smart.
Tori (:Right.
Rebecca (:She also has resiliently struck out on her own. I mean, I think there's elements to Sugar Cane, right, that I want to believe are a little bit pushing back on just the blonde, you know, the dumb blonde, but there are definitely huge elements of it in this movie as well. Sure.
Tori (:I mean, I think she was typecast like that because it would allow any man to fantasize about her then, right? Because if she's super smart, why would she want to be with any man?
Rebecca (:No longer attainable.
Tori (:Right, exactly. Yeah, and I think there's probably some parallels between Marilyn Monroe at that time in her career and Sugar Kane, right? Where both are, well, Sugar might not be necessarily consciously doing it, although she's recognized that she needs to break this pattern that she has. But Marilyn's trying to bust out, because I think pretty soon after that was when she does her, what is it, misfits or something.
So I think there's some parallels there with what's going on in Maryland's real life and what's happening with sugar. Kowalski from Sandusky, Ohio. I was like, Sandusky. I didn't remember that part. I've been to Sandusky a lot. It's a very popular place in Ohio. So anyhow, it was interesting. I, you know, I found myself really kind of.
Rebecca (:Nice.
Tori (:fighting these stereotypes that I kind of had and these assumptions I kind of had about Marilyn Monroe. And that only came from really kind of listening to some interviews about her. And again, in this interview with Jack Lemmon, he was asked, know, was she really that difficult to work with? And he's like, yes. He's like, but wasn't her being like, I'm paraphrasing, he did not say it this way. She wasn't a bitch.
You know, she wasn't difficult in that way. It was her process that was difficult. And she would, you know, he even said, even though like he and Tony and Billy might've thought it was a great take, would be something about it that she didn't like. And so she would want to do it again and again until they got a take that she thought she did well in. And I guess in one scene,
Rebecca (:Mm.
Tori (:Tony and Jack had a bet and Tony's like, we'll get it in 40 takes. And Jack's like, no, no, it's going to take more. But it took 47. So he won that bet. So he said, Marilyn was divine, but her process was difficult to deal with. Yeah. And a lot of the times that we see her, particularly like with her back to us is a body double. So she could just kind of.
Rebecca (:Interesting.
Tori (:focus on when she had a bee on camera in her face and speak and so forth, that she could just focus on that.
Rebecca (:Interesting. The only time I caught a buddy double was when she drove the bike down the stairs toward the dock at the end. I was like, okay, that is not Marilyn Monroe. And does not look anywhere near as graceful and in fact does not look female. yeah.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah
Rebecca (:You it's really interesting that you say that about that he said it was her process that was difficult. And, you know, you got to wonder if she were a man and desired the same level of perfection with a take. Would she have been described the same way? Of course not.
Tori (:Yeah.
Rebecca (:consummate professional, such a perfectionist, you know, whatever. And my God, mean, she just must, I just, can't even imagine how she was treated, right? I just, can't even, and so, you know, to just be like, God, I got to go in again with all these Gawkers and Gropers. And I just can't even imagine how you survive it, you know, because it just had to be miserable.
and to never probably be appreciated for that. Because you know what? also, she has incredible facial expressions, right? I mean, the range of emotion you see on her face. mean, maybe at times that emotion is confusion or lust or forlornness, whatever, whatever the quote unquote value of the emotion, she's nailing it, right? And her face just expresses.
so much that you're just kind of like, God, you wish she had gotten more chances to do things that had more meat to them because she probably would have nailed it.
Tori (:Yeah. Yeah. Probably. Yeah, I think she was really kind of underestimated by most people, men and women.
Rebecca (:It seems like a very safe assumption that, you know, a beautiful woman was underestimated for anything other than her physical appearance. And I also can't be too harsh on her for being, I mean, if she truly did look better in color than black and white, I mean, this is what sells her, right? And so I can understand her wanting to demand the thing. No, I need the best designer. I need to, I am expected.
to look perfect. So if you don't help me achieve that, you know, I'm not gonna be what America is expecting. So I imagine that gives you quite a comp.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:Yeah, I mean, because her stardom was not based on acting ability. It was totally based on how she looked. Right. And I don't know, she just came, always has come across to me as a very sad person, you know? I think I've read a biography about her probably 20 years ago. And even after reading that, I was just like, wow, she just seemed like she was sad.
Stardom doesn't always bring happiness.
Rebecca (:And does it even regularly bring happiness?
Tori (:Yeah, I kind of got upset a few times when she was talking about herself, when Sugar was talking about herself and she was like, I guess I'm just not very smart. I'm just really dumb. I mean, one line she's like, no, just dumb. If I had any brains, I wouldn't be with this crummy girls band. And I was like, but you know, I think that was the conditioning of the time too, right? Women weren't indoctrinated into their own smartness and capabilities.
except as, can your womb do for us? And can you cook?
Rebecca (:Yeah, and she's 25, right? Sugar's 25. I don't know when most people were married in 1929, right? When this is set, but probably a lot of women were married by then.
Tori (:I think so. think she was a little bit older for that time of year or for that time period in history. But it is interesting that in the twenties, right, it is a time of experimentation for women and they're starting to break some of the conventions, particularly with their clothing. I mean, you've got this all girl band and they're not just... Well, I we get an idea...
Yes. I mean, we get an idea that they're still like the one woman leaves the band to get married. The other one's pregnant and that's why they have these openings and why Joe and Jerry can get hired. So, I mean, there's still those elements in it, but it was an interesting time, I think, for them to set this film in with the themes that it has. It's just, it was very smart, very smart.
Rebecca (:Yeah, agreed.
Tori (:So, I have to ask you, this is nothing to do with anything at all that we've been talking about so far. It's totally way off track.
Rebecca (:Perfect.
Tori (:When the scene in the train car is happening, right? And they're having the party in upper seven. And there's what? At least a dozen women drinking and smoking in Jack Lemmon's bunk. How in the world do they expect us to believe that Sweet Sue and Beardstown did not hear the party going on?
Rebecca (:Yeah.
Rebecca (:Here is my only rationalization and it only works for Sweet Sue, not Beanstalk. before lights out, Sweet Sue and Beanstalk are chatting kind of in their bunks and Sweet Sue consumes two pills. My only explanation is that she takes some sort of sleeping pill and is just kind of dead to the world.
but it does not account for how long Joe is not aware of the party happening.
Tori (:A of the imagination. But a fun stretch of the imagination. It's just funny. It's a funny scene.
Rebecca (:Most definitely.
Rebecca (:Yeah, yeah. And I like how that this group of young women, all virtuosos, AKA virgins, are smoking and drinking, right? None of them are supposed to drink. None of them are supposed you know, your mother-in-law isn't going to want to be your mother-in-law if you smoke and whatever.
And yes, they are still within, this really touches upon what you were saying about the time. They are still doing the things that they are supposed to do, but they're rebelling too. They're mounting the rebellion and I love to see it. No, it is not just Sugarcane who has a flask in her garter, right? They're all down the party.
Tori (:Yeah, it's like sweet soup. Did you check what's in that hot water bottle?
Rebecca (:my god, that hot water bottle shows up a lot. And you know, I do not own one of those hot water bottles, but there was one in my house growing up. So my parents must have had one. Those things don't smell all that good because they're that rubber or whatever. Imagine that that doesn't permeate into the liquor in some way. And even if it doesn't, you're smelling it while you're drinking it out of the hot water bottle.
Tori (:It does.
Tori (:No, yeah.
Tori (:Sure, but I mean, if it's Prohibition, right? We're at smack dab in middle of Prohibition. was probably Moonshine anyways, and who would know?
Rebecca (:It's not gonna change.
Tori (:Yeah, they're calling it bourbon, but really it's just, know, because the guy, the moonshiner called it bourbon. that's what we're going to call it. So I had to laugh, you know, with some of the language, right? It's like, the coppers. Cause it was funny when they would, have the car chase, right? At the beginning of the movie and the cops are like hanging on the sideboards of the 1920s.
Rebecca (:Very, very good point.
Tori (:Ford or whatever the hell it was. Yeah. And I'm like, look at the coppers. Did they really do that? Yeah. And then a little bit later you hear one of the guys, the mobsters talk about the coppers. Yeah. Of course.
Rebecca (:I'll shoot you with my shotgun.
Rebecca (:Yep, yep. And you got the guy with chewing on the toothpick. You've got the guy tossing the coin in the air. Little Napoleon, that was amazing. mean, Napoleon famously what? Five-five, whatever, in real life, right? Yeah. Little Napoleon, diminutive as it is, now we got Little Napoleon and evading taxes and.
the Gentleman's Opera Society or whatever.
Tori (:Italian, Italian lovers of opera.
Rebecca (:Yes, aka the mobster meeting.
Tori (:The mobsters. Yes, that was funny. All the good tropes for mob movies. It was a good blend. And I think that probably was one of things that helped them get it by. Although Billy Wilder did not submit the script to the Hays board. They were not very, they were going to find them, but I guess they didn't. He's like, well, that's one way I got around it. I just didn't submit my script.
Rebecca (:Okay, well, other people maybe needed to take note of that.
Tori (:He was a rebel. He was a rebel.
Rebecca (:love that. And yeah, I think I would like to see more of those Billy Wilder movies because I have a feeling that, you know, more would be under underneath the surface as well, you know, and things done to sell it. But hey, I got some things to say in here as well.
Tori (:Yeah, it'd be nice to look at some of his really early films like Double Indemnity, which was shot in the 40s, right? Compared to some of the later stuff that he did in the late 50s and 60s and see, you know, how much was he just like a full on studio guy in the early films and then the rebel in the later films.
Rebecca (:I just thinking of yet another, you know, kind of what I guess another taboo topic of the time or whatever that was described, though completely fabricated and not quite sure how he pulled it off was impotence, right? We get a little and so here we have this taboo topic that gets explored. And of course, the iconic Marilyn Monroe is able to cure a man of impotence. Whether it is.
Tori (:Yes. Yes. I thought that was kind of funny. I'm hoping for that accent he was doing.
Rebecca (:You know.
Rebecca (:my God. mean, Daphne slash Jerry says nobody talks like that. And he's right.
Tori (:It was like a weirdly... Oh, I was actually thinking like Cary Grant. was like a weird riff on Cary Grant's accents, but that was, I was just like, okay. Yeah, that's really bad accent. Oh, I don't care.
Rebecca (:Mr. Howell
Rebecca (:And it sort of morphed in and out into different stuff. Like occasionally it sounded a little British and then definitely not. And then of course, one time I think he tried to pull off the Boston accent when he was talking about stuff that was outlawed in Boston. And I was like, you're not pulling that one off either.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah, it was bad.
Rebecca (:But again, you know, this this movie is has all sorts of parading around as something you're not right? Yes. And everyone apparently completely oblivious to the fact that you are not what you are, you know. And that's why I love the idea of Ozgood seeing through it, seeing the truth for what it is.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:Yeah, it just kind of makes me wonder what the strict social mores of that time and so many people, I mean, everybody was affected by World War II, right? And how many people were just showing their masks, right? Like everybody was being something else because that's what society expected them to be.
Rebecca (:I got a question for you. Okay. So absolutely love the tango scene. I mean, my gosh, this is when I feel Osgood has to know he's dancing with a man. they keep dancing anyway.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah.
Tori (:You're leading again. Yeah.
Rebecca (:Yeah, But
Tori (:Yeah. Yeah. Osgood had said something about that early when he was first talking about going to that little club down the road. He's like, yeah, we'll close the place down and make the band members wear blindfolds.
Rebecca (:Okay, one, thank you for pointing that out. completely missed, I remember the whole spiel about that, but I did not hear the part about the blindfolds. And two, I think this leads, this gives additional credence to my theory.
We'll blindfold the band. The band would know that I'm dancing with another man, but we'll blindfold them. Nobody will say anything because I'll be blindfolded. I think I'm crazy.
Tori (:That could-
Tori (:You might be onto something there, Rebecca.
And that of course leads us into my spotlight scene.
Tori (:which is where Daphne Jerry is telling Joe Josephine that she's engaged. She's got her maracas. And also, yep, Jack Lemmon is my shining star.
Rebecca (:This is
Rebecca (:Okay, same spotlight scene. Done. Okay, and we will both talk more about that scene. Jack Lemmon, I'm going to give my backup Shining Star. Okay. I'm really giving him credit with this scene. Yes, and there's a little reprise of it later when he grabs the maracas as they're packing up. he goes, dun. And then he's like, I gotta put it away. can't, I can't.
Tori (:Right up.
Tori (:Yeah.
Tori (:I'm a boy. I'm a boy. Yeah. And he's like, it's like he's thought about it. Right. Cause Tony Curtis, of course, his character, Joe is like flipping out. He's like, you can't do it. There are laws, there are conventions. It's just not done. And Daphne, Jerry is just like, I've got this all figured out. Tell him right after the wedding. Cause then I'll get a settlement. But he's just like, it's not like it's doesn't faze him.
Rebecca (:Unbelievable.
Tori (:Yeah. To think about it, you know, it was just, it was awesome. It was such an awesome scene.
Rebecca (:lucky girl. I am. And you know, I was I was almost disappointed when he said, I'll tell him, you know, after the wedding, and then I'll get the settlement because the feeling that I was getting was that he was genuinely giddy about being asked to get married and was really excited about getting married to Osgood. And so I kind of want to to think that
the money angle sort of came to him after as a good rationale to tell his pal because he just seemed so in, it wasn't like he was like, ooh, I'm about to get rich. He's enchanted by the night of the tango, you know? I don't know. I see Daphne and Osgood riding off to the sunset and they go to Paris and live in a little flat.
Tori (:Maybe.
Rebecca (:somewhere together.
Tori (:was just thinking about the sharing of the rose. I think that might have to be a new euphemism. the sharing of the rose.
Rebecca (:And that scene is incredible.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah. I liked it, you know, when Joe's asking Jerry, you why would a guy want to marry a guy? he's like, security. And I'm like, that's at that point in time, right? That's what I think for a lot of women, that's why they got married was for security. And I'm like, well, that tracks. It was really a fascinating scene.
Rebecca (:Yeah.
Rebecca (:It really was. that line that you just stated, why would a guy want to marry a guy security? And they are musicians. Yeah. They're selling their overcoats for their next meal, you know, and I love that. And I just also loved, you know, it's not done. And again, just as we were talking about earlier, but why is it illegal? Why isn't it allowed?
Why shouldn't it be if we love each other? I mean, I know they just met, but you know what I mean. We want to explore this relationship. Why shouldn't we be able to? Right. Right. Because it's not done because society has laws, has rules. And so, you know, the stuff that's coming out of Joe's mouth is sort of like the rules, the laws, the patriarchy, yeah.
Tori (:representing American society at that point in time.
Rebecca (:Yeah, it's hard for me to decide if that character is really Jerry or if that character is actually Daphne, you know?
Tori (:You know, and he had thought about that name, right? Because he was supposed to be Geraldine. Yes! And he, when they're getting introduced to Sweet Sue and, BADESTOP! He's like, I'm Daphne! Yeah! And he's like, always liked that name or something to that effect.
Rebecca (:Oh yeah, yeah, like maybe like maybe little Jerry liked to wear girls dresses, you know, and it was like, it was initially his idea and he wore the hula skirts and the earrings and all that stuff that I was really getting down with, you know. So I want to call that character Daphne. Daphne is the real character, not Jerry.
Tori (:I his idea.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah, I love it. He's like I tell you I'll never find another man. That's so good to me
Rebecca (:just live after.
Tori (:I'm sorry.
Rebecca (:Because you know what? Joe is not that good to him. In fact, Joe is rather abusive to Jerry. I don't like that friendship. I think that Joe uses Jerry time and time again. think Jerry needs to break up with Joe.
Tori (:No. He is. Yeah. Yeah.
Tori (:Absolutely. But, you know, we've talking mostly underlying themes and so forth. I love the Scooby-Doo chase when the gangsters are after them.
Rebecca (:It actually reminded me a little bit of the ending of Pink Panther, right? It was just kind of the same kind of ridiculous level of in this hallway, out of this hallway, up the stairs, down the elevator, you know, there were really elements that reminded me of that with the same kind of hilarity.
Tori (:Yeah, I wrote down the old hiding under the table trick.
Rebecca (:just cannot get away from mobsters to save their lives.
Tori (:They can't. I love the one mobster when they're in the elevator, he's like, don't we know you broads from somewhere?
Rebecca (:Yeah, even the dumb mobster, right? Where were you? I wriggled a little like you said. Not two brains to rub together.
Tori (:You
Tori (:Yep. Yep. I was impressed by them running in heels. I was like, damn, that ain't easy. That is not easy. I don't care about low heels. I can't either.
Rebecca (:There was something in the cake that didn't agree with them.
Tori (:Those lines! I was just like, oh my-
Rebecca (:Well, I guess then I shall bestow my shining star. I'm going to give it to Marilyn Monroe.
Rebecca (:I really am. And maybe it's because of how much I changed my perception of her with watching this movie and learning just a modicum about her life. I just want to award that. And I think I've mischaracterized her as I'm like, well, how is that representing? know, I think...
I want to give her a little bit of pioneer status, right? A little bit of a woman ahead of her time navigating an impossible world for her at the time. And so perhaps my shining star is a little broader for the life of this woman than merely her performance in this film.
Tori (:It's cool. She surprised me. Again, just because when you think about it in the context of the time and where she was in her life and so forth, I think it was a good role for her to do some breakout from her very carefully crafted studio stardom. And I think this is also a good example of how the studios
Rebecca (:Yeah.
Tori (:really underestimated audiences because this was the highest grossing film of 1959. So clearly, I'm sure most people didn't necessarily or if they caught some of the underlying tones, they just ignored it. clearly, it didn't stop them from going to see
Rebecca (:Yeah. And it's the beautiful thing about art that persists. I think once a piece of art does persist beyond its time, its true value can really start to be unearthed. Right. Sure. And the things that don't persist that maybe weren't worth persisting anyway, but those that do, you can get some additional.
layers and I think I feel like this film fits that category.
Tori (:Yeah, yeah, because it was kind of funny. There were a couple people I've seen that have chosen some like it hot as their closet picks. And I'm like, why? Because I'd seen it right several times. And I'm like, what is it about this movie? But now I understand.
Rebecca (:Now I too will have it. I mean, would it make my closet picks? I don't know. I'd have to think a little harder about my closet picks.
Tori (:Yes, yeah.
Rebecca (:Well, what a delightful, I mean, I was ready to just sort of talk about some of the fun aspects of it, but boy, digging in a little bit was very rewarding. And that second watch, mean, know, a second watch is always important, but for me this time, it was groundbreaking because I, cause maybe you could consider my first watch being how you had always seen it, right?
all the times you had seen it before, pretty lighthearted. was like, okay. that's funny. that Jack Lemon. Wow. That's a funny expression and how he's doing that. But boy, the second time, with a little bit of understanding of the time. And I was like, wow, I am so glad. So thank you, Bratton? What was, who's? Elegance Bratton? Thank you, Elegance Bratton for.
Tori (:Elegant.
Rebecca (:this pick because as a result, I tell you, a butterfly flaps its wings and Rebecca ends up watching some like it hot.
Tori (:But on that note, I think all we have to do is say goodbye.
Rebecca (:Thanks for listening, everybody!
Hi, Jerry. Everything under control? Have I got things to tell you? What happened? I'm engaged. Congratulations. Who's the lucky girl? I am.
What? Osgood proposed to me. We're planning a June wedding. What are you talking about? You can't marry Osgood. You think he's too old for me? Jerry, you can't be serious. Why not? He keeps marrying girls all the time. But you're not a girl, you're a guy. And why would a guy want to marry a guy? Security.
Tori (:Wallowing in the Shallows is created and produced by the both of us, edited by Mo. The soundtrack for Wallowing in the Shallows is Apache Rock Instrumental by Sound Atelier, available on jamendo.com. You can send us feedback at witstvpod at gmail.com. If you enjoyed Wallowing in the Shallows with us, why not hit that follow button on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Captivate, and pretty much anywhere else to get your podcast fix.
